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twistdfateangel Okay, so, now I'm feeling a little worried about my NaNo.
See,whatistigerbalm has been reviewing Miéville's "The City and The City". She's not at all happy with the way the author is portraying the Balkans (or at least, fantasy worlds with Balkan inspiration) and I can get behind that.
But, my NaNo is based in a country that's inspired by 19th c. Russia.
The synopsis: The protagonist is 19-year-old Sophia Templeton-Pavlova (probably screwing up already with nomenclature), the daughter of a naval captain and a noblewoman from another country, hence the odd name. Her father died years ago and, even with military benefits, it was hard to survive. Sophia is the youngest of seven girls, and her mother wasn't exactly raised with many marketable skills, plus, she was far too proud to be a courtesan. So, she used her connections and her skills in magic and sewing to gain a position as a sewing woman at the palace, under the Imperial Seamstress. When Sophia is seven, she's given a formal apprenticeship under the Seamstress, and starts living at the palace.
By the time the book actually starts, a lot has happened. The Tsar had, once upon a time, gone batshit crazy and had his wife executed. His only legitimate heir, Nadezhda (sp?), was nearly assassinated, before being spirited away to safety. Sophia took over as Imperial Seamstress after her teacher was imprisoned for "treason" (read: telling the Tsar to his face he was being stupid). But, the Tsar ignored her existence and, subsequently, none of the courtiers came to commission her. She's been largely forgotten and running wild in the back of the palace, with only a few old friends coming to see her. Now, the Tsar's dead, the traditional month of mourning is up and, suddenly, a young (and ridonkulously handsome) wizard arrives at the palace, claiming to be the rightful heir and the Tsar's bastard son.
At first, all this is well and good. The Tsarevna Nadezhda is content to remain in obscurity and is giving some consideration to joining a convent, along with her handmaiden and closest friend (and possibly half-sister). Sophia is suddenly getting jobs and invitations again. The new Tsar is even trying to stimulate the economy by dragging the Industrial Revolution kicking and screaming into the Empire. But, there are signs that something is wrong with this picture. The Tsar is growing increasingly desperate to prove his right to rule and the citizens are getting antsy. What's more, a usually quiet cult of Earthmother-worshippers is rising up and causing all kinds of trouble. Oh, yeah, and Sophia's colleagues are fretting because the new factories might make their jobs obsolete.
There's more to it than this, and it will end with the succession being questioned and set to rights again. There's steampunkery and magic and gods and Victorian-Gothic-Punk Raves, but what I'm worried about is the portrayal of the socio-political aspects of the Empire.
The Tsar and the succession are sort of vital to the country's survival. The spirit of the land and the people is notorious for using the seasons like a weapon (Napoleon's invasion of Russia, anybody?) and that's already a pretty typical portrayal of Slavic fantasy countries as written by Westerners, so I'm sort of balking at that, but it's become so damned thematic, that I may just leave it in and do my best to justify that. I know enough about Russian history to both admire the good rulers and facepalm at the rest, but if I stay that true to things, I may as well not bother renaming anything. I don't want the country in a constant state of arctic conditions, which is what happens in my story's world when the Tsar fucks up or loses his shit. They've survived for centuries and even been quite prosperous. I actually want the sudden "wtf-mini-ice-age" to be a shock and downright crippling. But, am I going to piss off readers who are Russian or from neighboring countries when they read it?
Then, there's naming. For years, I've been calling the country "Nicodonia" after a goofy, Slavic-esque, country in another novel idea I had years ago. The capital is "Katriansk" for the St. Katrian river running alongside the old city. The rest of the towns in the Empire I just gave "translated" names ("Witchwood", "Runebridge", "Stillwater", "Foxhill", "Redwall"--wait, no, skip that one ;)). I KNOW somebody will take issue to that. For one thing, St. Katrian's name would actually be better rendered as "St. Ekaterina the Hellene (Greek)", which would give the inspiration for the name away if I did it right. Just calling it some version of "The City by the River of that Saint" and using the same nomenclature used for other towns sounds... Well... Very dull. I want the capitol city's name to sound kind of epic, because, in my own mind, the capitol is really freaking epic and ought to be filmed wherever they filmed the stuff for Theed in the Star Wars movies or in St. Petersburg, because OMG ROCOCULOUSLY FABULOUS. And I shouldn't even need to go into how offensive "Nicodonia" must sound, but I'd like to keep the implication that it's named for "(St.) Nicholas the Lawgiver" (a Tsar who basically said "Christians, Pagans, stop fighting each other and try to fucking co-exist for a few more centuries).
I'm trying so hard to be respectful and sensible, while still keeping the thematic elements that inspired the story in the first place (including an observation by my husband on Russian politics and history). I don't want to have to make this "random, but very Western fantasy realm". I don't want to take away the themes, because then, there's not a lot giving the story any purpose. But, I am, as I have acknowledged for years, a "dumb American". I don't want someone to write it for me, but I would like to know that I'm not going to be widely decried by Eastern European fantasy fans for being an insensitive dope.
Edited for correct gender
See,
whatistigerbalm has been reviewing Miéville's "The City and The City". She's not at all happy with the way the author is portraying the Balkans (or at least, fantasy worlds with Balkan inspiration) and I can get behind that.But, my NaNo is based in a country that's inspired by 19th c. Russia.
The synopsis: The protagonist is 19-year-old Sophia Templeton-Pavlova (probably screwing up already with nomenclature), the daughter of a naval captain and a noblewoman from another country, hence the odd name. Her father died years ago and, even with military benefits, it was hard to survive. Sophia is the youngest of seven girls, and her mother wasn't exactly raised with many marketable skills, plus, she was far too proud to be a courtesan. So, she used her connections and her skills in magic and sewing to gain a position as a sewing woman at the palace, under the Imperial Seamstress. When Sophia is seven, she's given a formal apprenticeship under the Seamstress, and starts living at the palace.
By the time the book actually starts, a lot has happened. The Tsar had, once upon a time, gone batshit crazy and had his wife executed. His only legitimate heir, Nadezhda (sp?), was nearly assassinated, before being spirited away to safety. Sophia took over as Imperial Seamstress after her teacher was imprisoned for "treason" (read: telling the Tsar to his face he was being stupid). But, the Tsar ignored her existence and, subsequently, none of the courtiers came to commission her. She's been largely forgotten and running wild in the back of the palace, with only a few old friends coming to see her. Now, the Tsar's dead, the traditional month of mourning is up and, suddenly, a young (and ridonkulously handsome) wizard arrives at the palace, claiming to be the rightful heir and the Tsar's bastard son.
At first, all this is well and good. The Tsarevna Nadezhda is content to remain in obscurity and is giving some consideration to joining a convent, along with her handmaiden and closest friend (and possibly half-sister). Sophia is suddenly getting jobs and invitations again. The new Tsar is even trying to stimulate the economy by dragging the Industrial Revolution kicking and screaming into the Empire. But, there are signs that something is wrong with this picture. The Tsar is growing increasingly desperate to prove his right to rule and the citizens are getting antsy. What's more, a usually quiet cult of Earthmother-worshippers is rising up and causing all kinds of trouble. Oh, yeah, and Sophia's colleagues are fretting because the new factories might make their jobs obsolete.
There's more to it than this, and it will end with the succession being questioned and set to rights again. There's steampunkery and magic and gods and Victorian-Gothic-Punk Raves, but what I'm worried about is the portrayal of the socio-political aspects of the Empire.
The Tsar and the succession are sort of vital to the country's survival. The spirit of the land and the people is notorious for using the seasons like a weapon (Napoleon's invasion of Russia, anybody?) and that's already a pretty typical portrayal of Slavic fantasy countries as written by Westerners, so I'm sort of balking at that, but it's become so damned thematic, that I may just leave it in and do my best to justify that. I know enough about Russian history to both admire the good rulers and facepalm at the rest, but if I stay that true to things, I may as well not bother renaming anything. I don't want the country in a constant state of arctic conditions, which is what happens in my story's world when the Tsar fucks up or loses his shit. They've survived for centuries and even been quite prosperous. I actually want the sudden "wtf-mini-ice-age" to be a shock and downright crippling. But, am I going to piss off readers who are Russian or from neighboring countries when they read it?
Then, there's naming. For years, I've been calling the country "Nicodonia" after a goofy, Slavic-esque, country in another novel idea I had years ago. The capital is "Katriansk" for the St. Katrian river running alongside the old city. The rest of the towns in the Empire I just gave "translated" names ("Witchwood", "Runebridge", "Stillwater", "Foxhill", "Redwall"--wait, no, skip that one ;)). I KNOW somebody will take issue to that. For one thing, St. Katrian's name would actually be better rendered as "St. Ekaterina the Hellene (Greek)", which would give the inspiration for the name away if I did it right. Just calling it some version of "The City by the River of that Saint" and using the same nomenclature used for other towns sounds... Well... Very dull. I want the capitol city's name to sound kind of epic, because, in my own mind, the capitol is really freaking epic and ought to be filmed wherever they filmed the stuff for Theed in the Star Wars movies or in St. Petersburg, because OMG ROCOCULOUSLY FABULOUS. And I shouldn't even need to go into how offensive "Nicodonia" must sound, but I'd like to keep the implication that it's named for "(St.) Nicholas the Lawgiver" (a Tsar who basically said "Christians, Pagans, stop fighting each other and try to fucking co-exist for a few more centuries).
I'm trying so hard to be respectful and sensible, while still keeping the thematic elements that inspired the story in the first place (including an observation by my husband on Russian politics and history). I don't want to have to make this "random, but very Western fantasy realm". I don't want to take away the themes, because then, there's not a lot giving the story any purpose. But, I am, as I have acknowledged for years, a "dumb American". I don't want someone to write it for me, but I would like to know that I'm not going to be widely decried by Eastern European fantasy fans for being an insensitive dope.
Edited for correct gender
man, I'll learn to type eventually... :/
on 2010-06-17 12:43 pm (UTC)It all really depends on how faithful to the RL world you want to be.
I was pissy at Miéville because he set his pretendyland in the middle of the real here & now and had it interact with the rest of the world, but if he'd set it up as some sort of alternate history or universe I'd have been much happier. There's nothing stopping a country from having a mishmash of SEE features if that's the result of its history, but you can't have that *and* have your book be set in our very real past and present; the cheerful ignorance of a part of RL while at the same time using it as it is forms the core of what's insulting in TC&TC.
So, if your country is inspired by Russian history, folklore, and whatnot else but is not Russia nor set in this reality, I think you've got more leeway than Mr Awardypants does, plus you can explain any foreign elements by the differences in the story's background world. (I'd suggest explaining them explicitly if you can work that in, so as to pre-empt accusations of ignorance and cherrypicking.)
The other important thing is consistency - try choosing one real language or dialect as a base for yours and sticking with its rules, etc. (One particular style of dress, one distinct architecture, or what have you -- that is, if the country is huge then one for each region; but again, if history requires that it looks and sounds eclectic, work out some internal logic of how this came about and make it show.)
Some thoughts I had:
- why would the rightful princess just step back to let some random guy take over?
- if the protagonist is the Imperial Seamstress, is the court structure really so lax as to bend back and forth with the Tsar's moods? I can't see how she could simply be forgotten if she has the royal charter, so to speak, to hold the top position in a certain vocation; these things tend to stay firm while royals come and go
- does the Industrial Revolution have to be imported? This makes it sound like even fantasy!Russia has to lag behind the implied fantasy!West
- "Victorian" and "Punk" are two very, very English things (as is, for that matter, the "Gothic" aesthetic); are they necessary or can they be replaced by something more local?
- the translated names (Witchwood, Foxhill, etc.) also sound very English; I'd suggest leaving names in the original, whether it is Russian or fantasy!Russian
- "the [City] by the [River] of [Some Saint]" doesn't sound dull at all to my ears :) but that could well be because my hometown's full name translates as "the river of St Vitus" (we just call it River though)
ETA: I hope I wasn't rude with these!
Re: man, I'll learn to type eventually... :/
on 2010-06-17 08:58 pm (UTC)Answers:
1) Because, honestly, her memories of court are neither fond, nor strengthening. She's dreading going back, because the last time she was there, she was six years old and heinously shy. Besides, she really thinks "Handsome Bastard" is a good choice for the throne (she's not the best judge of character).
2) Good point. I like the idea of her being forgotten by most people, though, and left to her own devices, because it means she's had more time to get the skills she's going to need that her teacher either couldn't or didn't have the chance to teach her.
3) Another good point. Perhaps he merely brings improvements that they've missed out on. Either way, he's gunning to take down a large group of tradesmen-mages by replacing them with machines, and that's an element I feel needs to stay.
4) I'm not sure what the local equivalent would be. I'm going for a steampunk/arcanepunk story, as both magic and technology will be playing a huge role in the story. I also wanted there to be a working class youth cultural movement that's strongly tied to one of the major plot-threads. I only used those words because it was the closest I could think of to the style and aesthetic I was aiming for.
5) Trouble is, I didn't really have anything other than the English terms. Those were descriptive names in my notes (Witchwood is rumored to be haunted, Runebridge has a super-old bridge with ancient writing all over it, etc.) that were really nothing more than placeholders until I had better words. I don't know much Russian, except a few words here and there and some less-than-civil language that I learned for a LARP character with a salty mouth and a bad temper.
6) No offense to your hometown meant! I guess it's like Los Angeles in my mind. The city's full name translates as "Our Lady, Queen of the Angels," but, really now, who uses it anymore? Back in the first century or so after founding, sure, the city was referred to in full.
In short, I wish I had better answers for all of this. It had seemed like such a neat story two years ago. I'm okay with making changes (hell, the old novel was essentially "Around Steam!Europe in 80 Days" and it SUCKED). I'm totally open to criticism and advice.
I'm already using your advice about "pick a country and stay there". All the personal names, except for a few exceptions that are justified, are Russian in origin (or at least, as close as I could come with the resources I have). I'm trying to get better information on the Russian Orthodox Church and I'm doing my damndest with their pre-Christian beliefs and legends. The cultural aspects you picked out are the ones that would need the most fixing, but I'm still doing research into things like dress and food and etiquette. My best source is a translation of a 19th century Russian cookbook, which, like many cookbooks of the time, has some insight into these things. But, that's probably not going to be enough, so I may have to fall back on fantasy and pray.
Thank you again for the advice and I will gladly list you in the novel's dedication if you'll let me!
Apologies for the belated reply!
on 2010-06-23 09:39 am (UTC)2) I suppose she could do what a lot of people in authority but without credentials do: mask it by acting very loudly authoritative? But then she'd have to basically lead a double life: bossing underlings to do all the real work while she gets herself equipped for it... plus this wouldn't make her sympathetic to other characters (even if it would help distance and isolation) despite the reader knowing it's a ruse; so yeah, I haven't got a good answer here, sorry.
3) That's fine; I was only remarking on the "feels imported" bit so if that's not explicit I don't think I could complain about it.
4) Fair enough! It was just that the succession of these very English elements made the setting begin to sound like 19th ct London or Bristol with Russian names and titles pasted on.
5) This can be sorted through little_details (LJ comm, not sure about a Dreamwidth equivalent) or calling your flist/network for Russians willing to help out; wouldn't worry about it too much yet, though I would run an early outline or draft by a native speaker for details that seem more off than what one would allow for a fantasy setting. The best I could say, being a Slavic speaker but not Russian, is that we tend not to smoosh words into names so for example "Witches' Wood" sounds less essentially English than Witchwood.
6) None taken! :D (A question, now that we're on the subject of places' names: "St. Catherine the Greek" says that there is a Greece in this world as well, so I'm not sure any more if your country is supposed to be like Russia but not because this isn't our world, AU Russia where there is an AU Greece as well (and the rest) or like Russia but not since Russia and Greece both exist.
If yiou want to credit me for help that's ace of you, but I'll confess I'm not being entirely altrustic here: I'm sketching out this comic that's happening across a future AU Eurasia so by thinking about the issues you may face here I'm trying to see where I too could culture!fail.
Re: Apologies for the belated reply!
on 2010-06-24 04:11 am (UTC)2) Well, she can. But, only so much. Most of the usual stuff she can hand off to underlings, but if somebody requires a "Petticoat of Seduction" or whatever, she's on her own. If word gets out that she doesn't know what she's doing, she loses her job to a woman that she doesn't trust as far as she can sling a piano. So, she practices a lot and keeps her fingers crossed. It helps that few garments are ever actually thrown away (fairly standard practice in at least a few royal wardrobes). So when the fashion changes or clothing gets handed down, she can pick it apart and try to reverse engineer spells. Thus, she learns how the spells fit together, and how to do it herself.
3) I gotcha. I'm doing my damndest to not make my favorite subject in history turn into "LOL TEH WEST R TEH GR8EST".
4) Nuff said. I'll probably ask around and see if there's any sort of cultural nuances I'm missing.
5) Will do, though it rings oddly to me. I'll go through and see what I can do to make it work.
6) Well, yes, in a way. I've been calling it "SteamEarth". Granted, some areas haven't been named because I haven't needed them yet. Greece I needed, or an equivalent, so "Hellas" was coined. Italy remains city states, the most prominent being "Serenissima", "Remia", and "Etruria". The rest from there gets a little obscure. I'm allowing myself as many real-life parallels as I need to make it go, with some fast-and-loose on certain historical details for personal amusement and only really with American History (Emperor Norton I is sending his children, Grand Duke Ezekiel and Grand Duchess Lucy, to represent the Pacifican Empire at the coronation, because I &heart Castle Falkenstein).
That's understandable. You've spotted a number of issues I needed to hash out and that's why I started planning this early in the year.
Late again - I could go on about how I'm not normally like that but... :/
on 2010-07-13 11:15 am (UTC)2) Aah, the magic! I really like the idea of there being a magic practice specifically tied to clothes. One thing that tends to annoy me in so much fantasy is the idea that once you have access to magic, you can twist it into anything by yourself without having to specialise.
3, 4) Like with point 1, I'm certain this can be done really well when you have pages and pages of space to play with and detail stuff out, so I for one trust you.
5) Hm. Have you considered using untranslated names perhaps?
6) I get Remia and Etruria, but I'm curious to know how Venice's RL Byzantine roots, if you intend to make use of those, tie in with the Russianness of your main country.
Another question: is the upcoming industry magical as well? Because I can see how old magic vs new magic sounds more interesting and fresher than industry vs manual labour as having happened in actual history. I was always sad that Pratchett didn't go into this in greater detail, and Ponder Stibbons was really there to provide an occasional jokey reference to RL tech.
Re: Late again - I could go on about how I'm not normally like that but... :/
on 2010-07-14 04:43 am (UTC)3, 4) That is my hope. At 1,667 words a day, I'm pretty sure I can make it all work.
5) That's probably what I'll resort to. I'm starting to think that the capitol might be better off as "St. Katherine's City" because "Katriansk" is starting to sound offensive. So, since I'm having a hard time nailing down Slavic place naming, I'll probably just aim for whatever my Beta says is most accurate and leave it all as English translations.
6) Yay! Someone else noticed it! Actually, that's a minor point of plot/history that comes into play (having to do with a previous Tsar marrying a "Venetian" noblewoman and the traditions she brought with her). It's not as big as other plot points, but it's there as a subtle nod.
New Question: Absolutely. That's the thing threatening the old magic. The fact that new industrial magic is faster, more potent and cheaper, while old magic is reliable, longer-lasting, and safer. So the two are forever butting heads and there's a lot of trouble caused by the whole thing. Even at the end of the novel, I don't see the conflict as being resolved, just put to an awkward truce. Hell, the next novel might bring in a Ponder Stibbons-type to give the heroine an effective foil.
Re: Late again - I could go on about how I'm not normally like that but... :/
on 2010-07-14 04:44 am (UTC)Re: Apologies for the belated reply!
on 2010-06-24 04:18 am (UTC)I have weird views on religion.
Re: Apologies for the belated reply!
on 2010-07-13 11:20 am (UTC)Deleted, because Google is made of Win
on 2010-07-14 04:58 am (UTC)